{"id":365,"date":"2011-01-19T20:45:14","date_gmt":"2011-01-19T20:45:14","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicurbanism\/?p=365"},"modified":"2012-11-11T04:57:36","modified_gmt":"2012-11-11T04:57:36","slug":"please-skill-me-the-growing-credentialism-of-nycs-rock-underground","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicalurbanism\/2011\/01\/19\/please-skill-me-the-growing-credentialism-of-nycs-rock-underground\/","title":{"rendered":"please skill me: the growing credentialism of NYC’s rock underground"},"content":{"rendered":"

Using an admittedly unscientific sample of\u00a038 indie-rock groups from Brooklyn<\/a>, I poked around the bands\u2019 Wikipedia pages and their underlying sources to look for any members\u2019 college affiliations. In no time at all [update: and with further information from my sources; see below], I found information for 26 groups. Even if we assume the remaining 12 bands had no members with a college education, which seems really unlikely to me, this list is remarkable:<\/p>\n

1. Dirty Projectors:\u00a0Yale<\/em><\/div>\n
2. Grizzly Bear:\u00a0New York University<\/em><\/div>\n
3. MGMT:\u00a0Wesleyan<\/em><\/div>\n
4. LCD Soundsystem:\u00a0NYU, Bard<\/em><\/div>\n
5. TV On The Radio:\u00a0NYU<\/em><\/div>\n
6. Gang Gang Dance<\/div>\n
7. Vivian Girls:\u00a0Pratt Institute<\/em><\/div>\n
8. Vampire Weekend:\u00a0Columbia<\/em><\/div>\n
9. Yeasayer:\u00a0Penn<\/em><\/div>\n
10. Animal Collective:\u00a0Boston University, Brandeis, NYU, Columbia<\/em><\/div>\n
11. Hercules and Love Affair:\u00a0Sarah Lawrence, Bard<\/em><\/div>\n
12. The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart<\/div>\n
13. Das Racist:\u00a0Wesleyan<\/em><\/div>\n
14. Crystal Stilts<\/div>\n
15. Telepathe<\/div>\n
16. Chairlift:\u00a0University of Colorado<\/em><\/div>\n
17. A Place To Bury Strangers<\/div>\n
18. The Drums<\/div>\n
19. Sharon Jones & The Dap-Kings:\u00a0NYU<\/em><\/div>\n
20. Suckers<\/div>\n
21. Grizzly Bear (see #2)<\/div>\n
22. Matt And Kim<\/div>\n
23. Neon Indian:\u00a0University of North Texas<\/em><\/div>\n
24. St. Vincent:\u00a0Berklee College of Music<\/em><\/div>\n
25. Amazing Baby:\u00a0Wesleyan, Bard<\/em><\/div>\n
26. The National:\u00a0University of Cincinatti<\/em><\/div>\n
27. Panda Bear (also in Animal Collective):\u00a0Boston University<\/em><\/div>\n
28. The Antlers<\/div>\n
29. Black Dice:\u00a0Rhode Island School of Design<\/em><\/div>\n
30. Antibalas:\u00a0University of Michigan<\/em><\/div>\n
31. Ninjasonik<\/div>\n
32. Miles Benjamin Anthony Robinson:\u00a0NYU<\/em><\/div>\n
33. Class Actress:\u00a0UC Berkeley<\/em><\/div>\n
34. Japanther:\u00a0Pratt<\/em><\/div>\n
35. White Rabbit:\u00a0University of Missouri<\/em><\/div>\n
36. Bishop Allen:\u00a0Harvard<\/em><\/div>\n
37. Apache Beat<\/div>\n
38. Here We Go Magic:\u00a0School of the Museum of Fine Arts<\/em><\/div>\n
39. Oakley Hall<\/div>\n
40. Light Asylum<\/div>\n

Of the 26 bands that I found information for, 20 have at least one member who came from a private institution. (Note that this list doesn\u2019t account for whether anyone dropped out of college.) Public or private, there are an awful lot of highly exclusive institutions on this list. Interestingly, only one of these bands (actually, a solo performer) came from a music college, although obviously all kinds of colleges and universities offer formal music training. Still, if the latter isn\u2019t what most band members took away from their college education, then we\u2019re left with a lot of unnecessary schooling\u2014a substantial degree of educational \u201ccredentialism,\u201d as the academics call it.<\/p>\n

Now let\u2019s compare this to a different list: college affiliations for the nine bands featured most prominently in Legs McNeil and Gilliam McCain\u2019s history of punk rock, Please Kill Me<\/em><\/a>. This time I just looked at the Wikipedia pages, so the lack of information could mean I should have dug deeper. On the other hand, these musicians are far better known than anyone from Brooklyn\u2019s current indie-rock ranks (certainly their Wikipedia pages are larger).<\/p>\n

Velvet Underground<\/span><\/div>\n
Lou Reed:\u00a0Syracuse University<\/em><\/div>\n
John Cale:\u00a0Goldsmith College (University of London)<\/em><\/div>\n
Sterling Morrison:\u00a0Syracuse University, and later a Ph.D. at UT-Austin<\/em><\/div>\n
Mo Tucker<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
The Stooges<\/span><\/div>\n
Iggy Pop:\u00a0dropped out of University of Michigan<\/em><\/div>\n
Ron Asheton<\/div>\n
Dave Alexander<\/div>\n
Scott Asheton<\/div>\n
James Williamson:\u00a0Cal Poly Pomona (post-Stooges)<\/em><\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
MC5<\/span><\/div>\n
Fred \u201cSonic\u201d Smith\u201d<\/div>\n
Wayne Kramer<\/div>\n
Dennis Thompson<\/div>\n
Rob Tyner<\/div>\n
Michael Davis<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
New York Dolls<\/span><\/div>\n
Billy Murcia<\/div>\n
Arthur Kane:\u00a0Pratt Institute<\/em><\/div>\n
Johnny Thunders<\/div>\n
David Johansen<\/div>\n
Syl Sylvain<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
Patti Smith Group<\/span><\/div>\n
Patti Smith:\u00a0Glassboro State College<\/em><\/div>\n
Lenny Kaye:\u00a0Rutgers University<\/em><\/div>\n
Ivan Kral:\u00a0Geneseo College<\/em><\/div>\n
Jay Dee Dougherty<\/div>\n
Richard Sohl<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
The Heartbreakers<\/span><\/div>\n
Richard Hell<\/div>\n
Johnny Thunders<\/div>\n
Walter Lure<\/div>\n
Jerry Nolan<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
The Ramones<\/span><\/div>\n
Dee Dee Ramone<\/div>\n
Joey Ramone<\/div>\n
Tommy Ramone<\/div>\n
Johnny Ramone<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
Dead Boys<\/span><\/div>\n
Cheetah Chrome<\/div>\n
Jimmy Zero<\/div>\n
Stiv Bators<\/div>\n
Johnny Blitz<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
Television<\/span><\/div>\n
Richard Lloyd<\/div>\n
Tom Verlaine<\/div>\n
Billy Ficca<\/div>\n
Fred Smith<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
The Voidoids<\/span>
\nRichard Hell
\nRobert Quine:\u00a0Earlham College, J.D. from Washington University (St. Louis)<\/em>
\nIvan Julian
\nMarc Bell<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
This list isn’t totally NYC-centric, but adding the Stooges and MC5 doesn\u2019t doesn\u2019t significantly boost the educational attainments of America\u2019s punk-rock pioneers. The VU and the Patti Smith Group are pretty much it for the college bands. Adding two more CBGBs pioneers, albeit of questionable punk pedigree:<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
Blondie<\/span><\/div>\n
Debbie Harry:\u00a0Centenary College<\/em><\/div>\n
Chris Stein<\/div>\n
Clem Burke<\/div>\n
Jimmy Destri<\/div>\n
<\/div>\n
Talking Heads<\/span><\/div>\n
David Byrne:\u00a0RISD<\/em><\/div>\n
Tina Weymouth:\u00a0RISD<\/em><\/div>\n
Chris Frantz:\u00a0RISD<\/em><\/div>\n
Jerry Harrison:\u00a0Harvard<\/em><\/div>\n
\n

This comparative method is crude but, I think, highly suggestive. It indicates how musicians associated with NYC\u2019s rock underground have become considerably more college educated in the last 40 years or so. Furthermore, they now tend to come from highly prestigious institutions. Talking Heads, not the Patti Smith Group (much less the Ramones), represents the norm of educational attainment for indie musicians today.<\/p>\n

Needless to say, by no means should we conclude that today\u2019s bands are more intelligent, more artful, or more creative than the original punk rock groups. For the purposes of this argument, let\u2019s presume today\u2019s bands are\u00a0less<\/em>\u00a0so\u2014less intelligent, less artful, less creative. That\u2019s not a totally absurd proposition, considering how much more difficult the social, cultural, and economic milieu for punk rock music in this country was in the early 1970s. The question then is: what does the increase in the level of\/prestige associated with underground musicians\u2019 college education mean?<\/p>\n

First, let me discuss three possible objections to my argument:<\/p>\n

1. I\u2019m comparing apples and oranges in comparing 1970s punk rock to today\u2019s indie music. Rock\u2019s subterranean jungle has been quite fertile since punk rock, and in addition to the trajectory of college-radio\/alternative\/indie rock (I can\u2019t keep those distinctions straight anymore), we could just as well have looked at hardcore punk, DIY punk, or the crossover\/metal genre. Not to imply any sense of inferiority, but presumably these latter genres would reveal educational backgrounds closer to the 1970s pattern.<\/p>\n

That\u2019s a fair criticism. First, I\u2019ve compared these two different historical scenes to keep geography constant, in keeping with the creative city thesis that places with high degrees of artistic specialization and agglomeration retain these competitive distinctions over time, regardless of what technology or markets make possible. If NYC is indeed the model of a \u201cWarhol economy\u201d\u2014the name of a book by Elizabeth Currid, just one of many, that makes such an argument\u2014then let\u2019s stay focused on NYC. Second, one could argue that both 70s punk rock and millennial indie rock carry the torch for a modernist aesthetic of innovation and social revolt. That\u2019s a complicated argument to sustain, perhaps, considering how much bands like the Ramones and the Heartbreakers looked to earlier times for musical inspiration. (Where\u2019s Jon Savage when you need him?)<\/p>\n

2. In fact, educational attainment at the level of college and beyond has risen across the board in the U.S. over the 40-some years between these two periods. Even more, the growth of educational attainment in New York City has outpaced the U.S. as a whole. (The table below, which I constructed from easily accessed U.S. Census data, only goes back to 1990, but the increases it shows probably extend back further.) The pattern revealed by comparing the two lists is just one manifestation of similar trends across American cities, or at least creative cities, as a whole.<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

That\u2019s true. I certainly don\u2019t mean to imply this educational shift is unique to New York City. As an anecdote, I know of at least two recent graduates from the exclusive liberal arts college where I teach who have gone on to make a living with their indie-rock bands. They\u2019re doing it in cities, but not in New York City.<\/p>\n

3. In this same time period, educational attainment has increased within creative-economy sectors. Similar patterns of\u00a0skill intensification<\/em>\u00a0could be found in the industries of technological innovation, film and television, design, publishing, and so on.<\/p>\n

I don\u2019t have data on this, but I suspect it\u2019s true. Still, I think skill intensification means something entirely different for rock music than it does for, say, computer engineering. \u00a0Consider again how few of these highly educated bands, so far as I can tell, are educated in musical composition or performance; that\u2019s probably not what they went to college to do. And really, does it require a higher level of musical proficiency to play indie rock than it does punk rock? Grizzly Bear certainly plays their instruments better than the Ramones did, in a technical sense at least\u2014but better than Television?<\/p>\n

In truth, these so-called objections don\u2019t explain away the change I purport to have shown. Instead, they just point to broader contexts in which the changes in NYC\u2019s rock underground have taken place. The question remains: what does all this academic credentialism mean for the world of rock music?[Update 1\/21\/11: an anonymous source embedded in the Brooklyn indie-rock world gave me information for #4, 7, 9, 11 and 25. Rob Cardenaz says the bassist for the Dap-Kings went to NYU.]<\/p>\n<\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Using an admittedly unscientific sample of\u00a038 indie-rock groups from Brooklyn, I poked around the bands\u2019 Wikipedia pages and their underlying sources to look for any members\u2019 college affiliations. In no time at all [update: and with further information from my sources; see below], I found information for 26 groups. Even if we assume the remaining 12 bands had no members with a college education, which seems really unlikely to me, this list is remarkable: 1. Dirty Projectors:\u00a0Yale 2. Grizzly Bear:\u00a0New York University 3. MGMT:\u00a0Wesleyan 4. LCD Soundsystem:\u00a0NYU, Bard 5. TV On The Radio:\u00a0NYU 6. Gang Gang Dance 7. Vivian Girls:\u00a0Pratt Institute 8. Vampire Weekend:\u00a0Columbia 9. Yeasayer:\u00a0Penn 10. Animal Collective:\u00a0Boston University, Brandeis, NYU, Columbia 11. Hercules and Love Affair:\u00a0Sarah Lawrence, Bard 12. The Pains Of Being Pure At Heart 13. Das Racist:\u00a0Wesleyan 14. Crystal Stilts 15. Telepathe 16. Chairlift:\u00a0University of Colorado 17. A Place To Bury Strangers 18. The Drums 19. Sharon Jones & The Dap-Kings:\u00a0NYU 20. Suckers 21. Grizzly Bear (see #2) 22. Matt And Kim 23. Neon Indian:\u00a0University of North Texas 24. St. Vincent:\u00a0Berklee College of Music 25. Amazing Baby:\u00a0Wesleyan, Bard 26. The National:\u00a0University of Cincinatti 27. Panda Bear (also in Animal Collective):\u00a0Boston University 28. The Antlers 29. Black […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":308,"featured_media":729,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[43651,33365,43646,43653,43675],"class_list":["post-365","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-uncategorized","tag-creative-city","tag-higher-education","tag-indie-rock","tag-new-york-city","tag-punk-rock"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicalurbanism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/365","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicalurbanism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicalurbanism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicalurbanism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/308"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicalurbanism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=365"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicalurbanism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/365\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":408,"href":"https:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicalurbanism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/365\/revisions\/408"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicalurbanism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/729"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicalurbanism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=365"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicalurbanism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=365"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/pages.vassar.edu\/musicalurbanism\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=365"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}